Septerror43

Peaceful place for INTELLIGENT debate

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1 hour ago, Wicked Wulf said:

In the past there was a smaller number of maxed out castles.......so the waiting line was fast......now there are more.....so you stand in line longer........and if you realize this by logging in and out often you go to the back of the line......then all the crowns are invisible to those other maxed players and the devs need to change a few things.........

 

I quoted Wulf here because she paraphrased what @UselessOpinion said very well. I have to agree with this statement. If logging in every little bit is pushing you back in this "line" that Panda did mention before, then that does make all the difference. And if you stay in the back of this line for a very long time, and never hit actives, you will not get attacked unless you have someone who spends over an hour in MM looking just for you. It does explain a great deal as to the LB players that are not being attacked for a week or more---especially if they are staying online artificially during their sleep hours.[sneaky]

It still does not completely explain the reason someone gets exclusively revenged however. Yes, it does open you up to being able to be revenged easier since you are so far down the line in MM. However, I think, there still has to be a small time that someone is open solely to revenge verses being put into matchmaking. Just as soon as I go off, I get revenged. Or even if I let my screen go gray for a bit too long, I get revved. So there is still an opportunity for revenge over being put into MM. However, the gameplay has changed so, that a great deal of players never go into MM anymore. They exclusively revenge or hit zombies only. And that once again, messes with the dynamic of the game. 

Take the fact that you keep getting pushed back down the line, you only attack zombies, and the only actives you do attack is a revenge, you put yourself in a place where you may not get attacked for a long while--especially not revenged. Well, that pretty much makes up a great deal of players that are working this long MM line to their advantage, as well as a great deal of the player base now. This in turn makes it impossible for the typical player to play the game in the classic style that he or she is used to. Adapt you say? Why should we play the game in a way it was not intended to be played? One should be able to go into matchmaking and find a decent match without spending an hour to do so!

I honestly think that we have PROVEN here in this intelligent debate that something is WRONG with our matchmaking and revenge system as it is. I have not been around long enough to see what has worked and has not worked in the past. However, point 7 in @Septerror43's main point here has the most merit to me for the devs to look into: 

7. Perhaps reducing the time before zombie removal to 40 days or just making us less likely to come up in MM in favour of having active players come up more often or even going as far as a crown erosion algorithm that slowly removes crowns from inactives and gives them out evenly over the player base once a week...

I think this is something to truly consider if we are to keep active players in the game. If this problem could be fixed, we may even see some of our zombified players want to compete again. Let's face it, the way the game is now is depressing. So I am asking nicely and sincerely for  @Baroness Von Panda to talk this over with the team and see if there is something that can be done to help rectify the situation.

 

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So a little known fact about South Africa... We are home to SAB-Miller the largest brewing company in the world! We also make decent brews over here... none of that Budweiser ****  [lol] 

On a smaller scale this is the flagship beer from our local Micro-Brewery (Richmond Hill Brewery). The 'car park John' and no it's not named after a shady dude waiting for a hooker in a parking lot [rolleyes] ...   It's named after a local surfer who has a reputation for spending more time waiting in the parking lot for the waves to be perfect than what he actually spends in the water.

It's definately not the best craft beer you'll find in SA but it's pretty good and I always like supporting local peeps who do what they love.

 
a snippet from their web page
 
Yrrr - have you ever seen a happier looking ou? And how can you not be when you find out you've just had a beer named after you! Local legend John Scheeper has been immortalised by the Beer Shack with their new CarPark John Pale Ale.

Shot to local surfer and owner Matt Repton, who says it's brewed in honor of the countless hours that John's put into the surf lineups across the Eastern Cape. Nice one mate!

I asked local brewer Niall Cook a few quick questions about the bru's brew.

So tell us a bit about Car Park.

Car Park John is an American Amber Ale. We were trying to go for a easy drinking beer that has a rich caramel flavour with a burst of tropical aromas, such as passion fruit and guava. We really wanted to make this beer as interesting as possible. Our hope is that Car Park John will help expand the minds of its drinkers (especially PE's locals) to the vast and interesting world of craft beer.  
 
617292_orig.jpeg
John having his first sluk with brewer Niall Cook looking on
 
 

First round is on me :) 

 

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2 hours ago, AngelicAngieK said:

It still does not completely explain the reason someone gets exclusively revenged however. Yes, it does open you up to being able to be revenged easier since you are so far down the line in MM. However, I think, there still has to be a small time that someone is open solely to revenge verses being put into matchmaking. Just as soon as I go off, I get revenged. Or even if I let my screen go gray for a bit too long, I get revved. So there is still an opportunity for revenge over being put into MM. However, the gameplay has changed so, that a great deal of players never go into MM anymore. They exclusively revenge or hit zombies only. And that once again, messes with the dynamic of the game. 

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OK...IMO - and I realize I have no stake in this game with high crowns, SO DO NOT MAKE SOME SMART REMARK (not you Angie lol) that I have no voice or any knowledge of the game I have played for over 2 years and even if not at leaderboard level often........some of us can still read and see and hear what is going on.....and not even playing right now........so I am just voicing an opinion based on what others have told me and what I have read here...

Anyway........what if everyone is kinda right? What if you take ALL the information in a few threads and tons of comments and combine some of them? East, Mali, Septerror, Fury and Useless......among others. More than one person CAN be right you know? Panda said they did not make a revenge window......but what if all the other things combined.....like others have said CREATED this window?

High crowners don't see crowns in MM even when they are out there

People are being revenged exclusively? Well that kinda goes with it all......if no one can see you in MM cause you ARE NOT THERE YET .......yet you have 15 players (multiplied by several days) actively looking to ATTACK JUST YOU..........ONLY ONE gets that revenge........and PT starts.......so you are still invisible to MM right?

So with more ppl doing the space bar thing......they can ride out that whole bucket after their attacks.........after their PT expires they get revenged or they are online to attack.......but if they keep manipulating their online time......and going to the bottom of the que over and over (what @UselessOpinion  said about the order of the MM que).......no one sees them but the people that have them in their revenge log.

I don't think devs did anything specific or created this so much.....because I don't think they are working on the game.....but I do think it is VERY possible that when they nerfed defense in early ages.....and so many new players addicted to conram aged up REALLY fast, then they messed with revenges twice (or more we don't know about)......now we have a bunch of high PL players (that not all know how to actually play btw lol) and now that waiting que is long.....and that maxed castles no longer see crowns because they are all falsely ONLINE.....or on PT or doing what ever.

Basically we have a ton of ppl in age 10 now.....and many of them figured out or by accident realized if they play the way they were playing....they don't get attacked so they keep doing it......

And it is one more thing that kills the game.

@Septerror43 you actually think Miller beer is better than Budweiser beer? [scared]

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33 minutes ago, Wicked Wulf said:

they messed with revenges twice (or more we don't know about)

I do believe this the "revenge window" that everyone is talking about.  @mmali386 explained this before.  He even gave us a pretty graphic. There has  been a brief time of revenge only that came about in a patch a long time ago. (We will have to let him explain when and where.) But with the other factors into play, it has made the length of time increase. So yes it is a combination of things that has made it worse. But there has been a chance to exclusively revenge for a long time according to him and many others. It has just got to the point that we are now seeing the trend at the length of time that can be undeniable. So there is truth to both sides of the argument. But if nothing is done, it will continue to get worse.

59 minutes ago, Wicked Wulf said:

Anyway........what if everyone is kinda right?

So yeah, that is what I totally agree with![smile]

But this idea that you are getting pushed back to the end of the line by logging on every 50 mins or so, just solidifies the fact that abuses are evident and something must be done. Maybe some think it is just fine to play like this. But I just find it really sad. All the glitter of teams competing in leagues is gone. All the hurrah of being on the leaderboard is gone. Because it does not take much skill. All the leaderboard and league standings show us now is who is willing to next for hours on end or do 50 rushes in a day to make it to the top. Like I said, really sad.

 

I'll pass on the beer. But if anyone is willing to mix some margaritas, I'm your girl.[tongue] (No more tequila shots though. Me and that much tequila is not a good combo. [lol])

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2 hours ago, Wicked Wulf said:

but what if all the other things combined.....like others have said CREATED this window?

That is exactly what has been going on and why it is far more problematic than a simple fix can repair, because it is a product of multiple elements combining to produce an unexpected effect, aka emergent gameplay. which can be a very good thing in some cases and a nightmare in others (in one of the online Sims games, players evolved a criminal underworld replete with gangs and organized crime[scared]).

2 hours ago, Wicked Wulf said:

I don't think devs did anything specific or created this so much.....because I don't think they are working on the game.....but I do think it is VERY possible that when they nerfed defense in early ages.....and so many new players addicted to conram aged up REALLY fast, then they messed with revenges twice (or more we don't know about)......now we have a bunch of high PL players (that not all know how to actually play btw lol) and now that waiting que is long.....and that maxed castles no longer see crowns because they are all falsely ONLINE.....or on PT or doing what ever.

Exactly what I've been saying all along, more than one single thing in action here, which makes it much harder to fix. Btw, lower ages are seeing the same kind of delays in MM, but it is not as consistent as it is at higher levels because the lower level players have more diverse playing styles than those at the top who are more set in their ways. Oh, and the dude to ask about this is our sage, @SpelerWeetIkHoeveel, he has a good background in Complexity matters, so should be familiar with what we are seeing in the game right now.

Now on to more important things, since we have finally reached page 4, Da Beers. At the last annual Brew at the Zoo event here in LA we had 60 local Southern California craft brewers (you pay $50 at the gate, they give you a 5 oz. mug and you just get in line at a vendors' booth and get it refilled as often as you want, it's all-you-can-drink) , so there are lots of very good and tasty beers being produced all over the area. Some of my favorite stand by beers are from the Stone Brewery which produces excellent heavy gravity beers, double and triple IPAs, Russian Imperial Stouts, and quite a few others.stone-beers-tasted.png   http://www.stonebrewing.com/

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3 minutes ago, AngelicAngieK said:

But there has been a chance to exclusively revenge for a long time according to him and many others

If you were at the bottom of the que...and no one could see you.......would that not be open to only revenges? I mean you would not be in MM.......

I guess I am saying I think all combined and the way players have evolved in playing created this 'window'......I don't think it came in a patch. I could be wrong of course....just my own opinion.

Others are far smarter at all of this and more observant than myself........

No going to call anyone out.....but in another thread......someone is asking for advice.........so I gave advice based on I thought they were a lower age castle........I was wrong.....they are age 10 and that is exactly the problem all these other things have caused........

I DO NOT BLAME THE PLAYER AT ALL.......in most games the object is to move up and upgrade fast........in CS it kills your gameplay totally......and then you have to either revenge or rely on that easy win.......I really don't think the devs understand what all these little fixes and nerfs actually did to the game until lately.

Totally messed it all up for a real challenge and a fun competition.

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8 minutes ago, AngelicAngieK said:

There has  been a brief time of revenge only that came about in a patch a long time ago. (We will have to let him explain when and where.)

Actually, there was never any 'revenge only'  window released in that patch, all that the devs fixed was the ability to revenge on a revenge, eliminating rev cycles. A lot of players at the time were asking the devs to make revenges easier and assumed that when the devs changed the way we used to be able to revenge they also gave us a window, but the devs never confirmed or refuted it at the time, so the idea of some 'secret rev patch' was born. But, Panda, has recently categorically and emphatically said--there is no revenge only window, meaning there is nothing in the game's code that is intentionally put there to create it and that is what I've been arguing against the whole time. Nonetheless, shortly after the rev cycle patch folks at higher levels started seeing longer delays in MM and def logs filled almost exclusively with red fists,  and it happened rather suddenly, so again folks assumed it was caused by some patch, but again, it was never confirmed or denied by devs until recently. But the whole thing can be easily explained by an influx of large numbers of inexperienced players into the game and the change in the overall game dynamic it produced, and that is far scarier than a single patch. [scared] As for the devs, they had absolutely no way to predict that this would happen, because these kind of things evolve on their own as time progresses and none can actually control what happens. So, they are not being clueless about it, there simply is no way that anyone could have predicted that this would happen.

33 minutes ago, AngelicAngieK said:

if anyone is willing to mix some margaritas, I'm your girl.[tongue]

Here you go, Salud! [lol]

img_how_to_make_an_easy_margarita_on_the

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37 minutes ago, AngelicAngieK said:

There has  been a brief time of revenge only that came about in a patch a long time ago. (We will have to let him explain when and where.) But with the other factors into play, it has made the length of time increase. So yes it is a combination of things that has made it worse. But there has been a chance to exclusively revenge for a long time according to him and many others.

I'm sorry to say this again, but there isn't. It's not possible to "accidentally" program in a Revenge only window. It wouldn't require editing Revenge, it would require adding an entire extra function to matchmaking. We haven't done that and we've still checked  anyway, repeatedly, to verify this just to be absolutely certain.

While I'm not disputing that there does seem to be a a longer than usual wait between entering matchmaking and being attacked, I can say with absolutely certainty that there is no revenge only window. 

I'm not disagreeing that the wait time is unusual given historic patterns, and I know that player frustration around this is why it keeps coming up again and again. I empathize with that completely and assure you that this has been raised widely and repeatedly with the team, but there is no revenge only window. 

 

27 minutes ago, Wicked Wulf said:

If you were at the bottom of the que...and no one could see you.......would that not be open to only revenges? I mean you would not be in MM.......

That's maybe a bit too linear. Think of it like a bowl of M&Ms. There's a big ole bowl there, but you can only pick up one at a time. They're all available for you, but some are at the top and are the color you like, and some are burried right at the bottom or the color you don't like. Doesn't mean they aren't there and available, but it relies on someone digging to find it. 

 

And I'll take a malibu & coke thanks.

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1 hour ago, Wicked Wulf said:

OK...IMO........some of us can still read and see and hear what is going on.....and not even playing right now........so I am just voicing an opinion based on what others have told me and what I have read here...

Anyway........what if everyone is kinda right? What if you take ALL the information in a few threads and tons of comments and combine some of them? East, Mali, Septerror, Fury and Useless......

I want to apologize in advance for interfering with this intellectual discussion, but - I would like to make some adjustments.

In this commentary, in my very humble view, there is a fundamental contradiction. Scythian Opinion and the point of view of Mali and East are directly opposite.

Honestly, I'm sure that I and Useless Fury play different games - I absolutely do not understand what they're trying to say, where they take all these "accurate" data, figures and stuff.

And this question is not about the styles of the game - it's about the game itself.

A lot to say and say a lot - it's not the same thing.

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16 minutes ago, DeNiSs said:

there is a fundamental contradiction. Scythian Opinion and the point of view of Mali and East are directly opposite.

Actually, I have never disputed that what Mali and East are seeing is wrong, only the reason for why it is happening, and Panda has confirmed the point I was making several times now, this thread included. In case you missed it again:

16 minutes ago, Baroness Von Panda said:

I'm sorry to say this again, but there isn't. It's not possible to "accidentally" program in a Revenge only window. It wouldn't require editing Revenge, it would require adding an entire extra function to matchmaking. We haven't done that and we've still checked  anyway, repeatedly, to verify this just to be absolutely certain.

While I'm not disputing that there does seem to be a a longer than usual wait between entering matchmaking and being attacked, I can say with absolutely certainty that there is no revenge only window. 

There is a seeming rev window especially at the higher levels, but it us not in any way programmed by the devs to be there, instead it is something that has evolved over time as a consequence of the change in the kind of players there are in the game now. And that is why the devs never find anything in the game's programming, it is all working as it should, but over time and with a large number of players interacting with each other it produced these unexpected and unpredictable effects. (you really should read the article on emergent gameplay that I've posted the link to several times now, this is a kind of thing that many MMOs are prone to).

Edited by Scythian Fury

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21 minutes ago, DeNiSs said:

In this commentary, in my very humble view, there is a fundamental contradiction. Scythian Opinion and the point of view of Mali and East are directly opposite.

Possibly......and I will be honest......when Fury's posts get long I kinda skim over and tune out lol.......sorry.

But Fury has not said one thing is causing it.from what I remember.....he thinks it is the way play has evolved due to several things in the past happening......

East gave precise accounts of what he observed, tested and collected........to me what he is seeing is real.......and he even arrived at a way to duplicate it kinda........

To me, they both together can still be part way to the answer of what is happening and how it is happening............

I will admit I am baking, cooking and cleaning house so I am up and down a lot right now.......

As for Angie saying that Mali said there was a patch that did this........not sure I agree with that......but there is so much info and theory presented......it is getting hard to remember who said what TBH.

22 minutes ago, Baroness Von Panda said:

I'm sorry to say this again, but there isn't. It's not possible to "accidentally" program in a Revenge only window. It wouldn't require editing Revenge, it would require adding an entire extra function to matchmaking. We haven't done that and we've still checked  anyway, repeatedly, to verify this just to be absolutely certain.

While I'm not disputing that there does seem to be a a longer than usual wait between entering matchmaking and being attacked, I can say with absolutely certainty that there is no revenge only window. 

I'm not disagreeing that the wait time is unusual given historic patterns, and I know that player frustration around this is why it keeps coming up again and again. I empathize with that completely and assure you that this has been raised widely and repeatedly with the team, but there is no revenge only window. 

 

That's maybe a bit too linear. Think of it like a bowl of M&Ms. There's a big ole bowl there, but you can only pick up one at a time. They're all available for you, but some are at the top and are the color you like, and some are burried right at the bottom or the color you don't like. Doesn't mean they aren't there and available, but it relies on someone digging to find it. 

 

And I'll take a malibu & coke thanks.

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lol.......I am not saying the devs created a "window" so if there is NO CODE for this window.....they are not going to see it.

I don't think some accidental code was written......I think several things combined and it had this effect due to current new player behavior and so many landing in age 10 now....and many finding a way to stay online for 8 hours making their crowns unavailable......AND it has caused this window........Devs are not going to see it because their is no code for it......and sure they can look at player data from 100's of players to try to find the pattern......but it is likely not going to happen.

To me the problem with the bowl of M&M's is that when you constantly take from the top......those at the bottom are safe from being eatten.....they are never really in reach.  lol

OMG I hate it when I can't read what others write while I am posting....it erases my current post......

NOW I read what Fury wrote......I just said it a diff way

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2 minutes ago, Wicked Wulf said:

lol.......I am not saying the devs created a "window" so if there is NO CODE for this window.....they are not going to see it.

I don't think some accidental code was written......I think several things combined and it had this effect due to current new player behavior and so many landing in age 10 now....and many finding a way to stay online for 8 hours making their crowns unavailable......AND it has caused this window........Devs are not going to see it because their is no code for it......and sure they can look at player data from 100's of players to try to find it......but it is likely not going to happen.

To me the problem with the bowl of M&M's is that when you constantly take from the top......those at the bottom are safe from being eatten.....they are never really in reach.  lol

Oh, the first part of my comment was aimed at the people waving the revenge window flag, don't worry :) 

The M&M bowl analogy doesn't entirely shake out because they don't refill from the bottom, and no one mashes a next button a bunch of times with an M&Ms bowl, but if you apply that to it, it might give a better perspective. Also there's a whooole bunch of hands reaching for the M&Ms all at once all the time. 

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3 minutes ago, Wicked Wulf said:

To me the problem with the bowl of M&M's is that when you constantly take from the top......those at the bottom are safe from being eatten.....they are never really in reach.  lol

Yup, and a player with 8K crowns can go on not being attacked for days.[scared]

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